| Author | Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) | 
      
      
        |  Matrix Operator
 Imperial Academy
 Amarr Empire
 
 6
 
 
       | Posted - 2012.04.17 14:24:00 -
          [1] - Quote 
 Are taxes the sleeping giant when it comes to fixing the isk faucets?
 
 More taxes are coming: Skip to 27:00 for more details.
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MZD6-vGQms&feature=plcp&context=C4f10f15VDvjVQa1PpcFOEzQi5G2x0m0l32YE8I8CIMb3LQJfYC8w%3D
 
 Question is... what's the best way the new taxes should be implemented? I for one would be in favor of
 
 1. An increase in NPC corp taxes to 15% (from 11%)
 2. A sales tax increase on all hi sec NPC stations to 10%.
 3. A sales tax increase on all low sec NPC stations to 5%
 4. A sales tax increase on all null sec NPC stations to 2%
 3. Sales taxes at Alliance Outpost should be set by the alliance and goes into alliance/corp funds to motivate players to get out of highsec.
 
 Never thought I'ld be proposing more taxess...
  . But its probably the easiest way to fix the sink/faucet imbalance in the game. | 
      
      
        |  Matrix Operator
 Imperial Academy
 Amarr Empire
 
 6
 
 
       | Posted - 2012.04.17 15:52:00 -
          [2] - Quote 
 
 Barakach wrote:Higher sales taxes would just result in less volume moving and increased prices. The reduced volume would make the increased taxes a moot issue. 
 Not true in many instances. A much of the games items have inelastic demand.
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        |  Matrix Operator
 Imperial Academy
 Amarr Empire
 
 15
 
 
       | Posted - 2012.04.17 21:52:00 -
          [3] - Quote 
 
 DarthNefarius wrote:NPC tax doesn't affect mining & with the new WarDeck system I won't be surprised to see a few miners move into more NPC corps & keep there bounty alts in a 1 man corpIt'll be interesting to see how peeps start avoidingtaxes when it becomes too overbearing. Maybe anincrease in the use of contracts?
 
 Mining is not an isk faucet. Actually NPC corps have the highest taxes already.
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        |  Matrix Operator
 Imperial Academy
 Amarr Empire
 
 15
 
 
       | Posted - 2012.04.17 21:58:00 -
          [4] - Quote 
 
 Driftfire wrote:Another idea would be for faction ( and maybe officer ) drops to be encrypted BPCs rather than items. These items may de-coded at NPC station for a fee to made useable. [ hmmm this could be extend to all drops in an extreme case ].
 
 I don't know. Seems overly complex. Sales and profit taxes are pretty simple, straightforward, more predictable, and easier for CCP to regulate as needed.
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        |  Matrix Operator
 Imperial Academy
 Amarr Empire
 
 15
 
 
       | Posted - 2012.04.17 22:08:00 -
          [5] - Quote 
 
 Adunh Slavy wrote:Instead of more taxes, maybe more industries.
 If productivity can keep pace with ISK, then the overall pricing should stay more or less the same. The more things there are to do, that can be profitable, that are not ISK generating activities, the less ISK generating there will be.
 
 Ideas, some of them ancient and certainly not mine:
 
 POS slot rental
 Clone making
 Implant making
 New unpopulated space with no rats and totally new materials (WH would have done this almost exactly, except for blue loot, which made sense at the time, now with PI done on planets, blue loot seems less a necessity.)
 High Sec POCO
 Mini POS/Personal POS/Homesteads (winter 2012?)
 Stocks/Bonds
 WiS related things
 Dust related things
 
 More stuff to do, more stuff to spend ISK upon, more consumption - Spread player time out over a more broad economic landscape. Spread the ISK out upon a more broad economic landscape.
 
 Those really just seem like ways of diversifying wealth and investments. Not an isk sink. All the isk bounties and NPC payouts input into the game will still be stacking up. Just changing hands a few more times. The only way to remove isk from the game is to either pay an NPC, frozen in cancelled accounts, or deleted punatively by the gamemasters.
 
 
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        |  Matrix Operator
 Imperial Academy
 Amarr Empire
 
 17
 
 
       | Posted - 2012.04.18 11:58:00 -
          [6] - Quote 
 
 Adunh Slavy wrote:Matrix Operator wrote:Those really just seem like ways of diversifying wealth and investments. Not an isk sink. All the isk bounties and NPC payouts input into the game will still be stacking up. Just changing hands a few more times. The only way to remove isk from the game is to either pay an NPC, frozen in cancelled accounts, or deleted punatively by the gamemasters.
 
 
 Correct, it is not a sink. ISK spread over more production, more things for players to do other than shoot little red + signs and produce ISK. More things to trade, more markets to enter, more money going into the market - more money being removed via existing taxes and fees. Less people shooting rats. 
 Trying to entice players away from ratting to decrease the amount coming in from the bounty faucet? Probably not going to very effective. Taxes will be.
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        |  Matrix Operator
 Imperial Academy
 Amarr Empire
 
 17
 
 
       | Posted - 2012.04.18 12:17:00 -
          [7] - Quote 
 
 Ethilia wrote:More sales and broker taxes are a really bad idea. All it will do is make small single step outfits totally unprofitable. Instead, you will have to take something all the way from gathering inputs to final product since every step along the way adds cost. When taxes are low the cumulative additional cost isn't so terrible for a 5 step process, but if taxes were say 10% at each step it would be a 46% increase in cost from inputs to final product. It is impossible to compete when your costs are so out of line from big outfits who don't pay those costs. 
 As things are now:
 
 -NPC corp taxes apply to NPC payouts like bounties. Increasing this tax will decrease the amount of isk coming in from NPC corp missioners.
 -Station taxes apply to sell orders.
 
 There will be an initial price shift to as suppliers and manufacters adjust, but then so will the end price of the product that manufactures will sell to market (the cost will be handed down to the cusumer). Of course moving to lower sec space will have its advantages for manufactures (more incentive to move to low sec / null sec and reap the benefits). Also, having a unmitigated isk faucet by some theories of inflation is a major contributor to inflation which drives up the price of supplies as well (current inflation rates are completely out of control). Efforts to decrease the isk faucet/sink ration will potentially help stabilize prices, even if there is an initial price adjustment from the taxes.
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        |  Matrix Operator
 Imperial Academy
 Amarr Empire
 
 20
 
 
       | Posted - 2012.04.19 17:36:00 -
          [8] - Quote 
 
 Ethilia wrote:If I understand you correctly you are saying station trade taxes will be passed on to the consumer. The whole point of my post was to point out that it will NOT be passed on. Instead, big operations will simply build things from top to bottom tax free (vertical integration) while the small guys will be forced out of the market due to loses from taxes. I highly doubt NPC corp mission runners account for a large portion of the isk faucets from bounties. It seems much more likely that 0.0 bots, complexes, anomalies, and ratters are the ones who take the lions share of bounties. The massive printing of isk is totally unbalanced and undoubtedly a major cause of inflation. However, station trade taxes are a terrible isk sink. The most obvious solution is to hack bounties and isk faucets in general across the board until they match isk sinks. The isk can be replace with materials or something else (monocles?   ).  
 I say 'tough cookies' to that.
 
 Here's the reality. CCP isn't going to touch either the null sec or the high sec bounty payouts and have made that obvious. Otherwise they would have done it a long time ago (this is a long term problem). The reason they will never touch the null sec payouts is that they have made it a core game design goal to make Null Sec more lucrative in all ways than any other region in order to balance the risk/reward ratio that null sec needs to attract players. Being constantly blown up makes the lossess of null sec pretty high and thus they will not make any changes to make change the isk potential of of the null sec regions any less.
 
 Additionally, the hi sec missioners are a probably one of the more substantial groups in Eve in numbers (remember that 60-70 percent of players live in hi-sec), and CCP fears the rage quits and forum rage if they substantially nerf their income.... they likely fear the missioner group more than the industry group.
 
 So no matter how much we want it (me included) decreaseing bounties isn't going to happen.
 
 In regards to verticle intergration...tough. It is more important for CCP to successfully sink isk out the game to bring stability to the economy, than it is to protect 1man+alt corps. This is Eve, adapt. If taxes makes it hard for middile manufacturers to compete, they will just have to adjust by joining larger corps that *are* vertically integrating, or start vertically intergrating themselves. Bring on the Age of the Robber Barons!!!.... John D. Rockefeller would be proud.
  
 Of course if CCP wanted to throw the middle manufacturer a bone they could provide loopholes such as exempting private contracts (not public or course) from all taxes. Those adept enough to be able to forge established intercorprate deals with suppliers, manufacturers, and distributors would be able to survive... this is supposed to be a game of multiplayer corps and multiplayer cooperation right?
 
 Higher taxes are coming. Its already been stated by CCP. They will probably wait until the mid-point between releases to do it in order not to make too many new changes to quickly, is my guess. But I'll bet my freighter that they will eventually be here before the Winter.
 
 So for the question of verticle intergration, guess what my new corp name is going to be... Standard Oil.
  . This is Eve...survival of the fittest in PvP doesn't just pertain to pew-pew. Adapt... or give me all your stuff. 
 
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        |  Matrix Operator
 Imperial Academy
 Amarr Empire
 
 23
 
 
       | Posted - 2012.04.19 22:32:00 -
          [9] - Quote 
 
 Tomnio wrote:Well, to be the concerned citizen of New Eden that I am, what am I getting for my taxes being increased other than my hard worked for iskies taken away for no apparent reason?
 Universe Health Care??????
 
 You get cookies... cookies which are tough
  ... oh, and a more stable game economy. 
 I guess we could have floormats for our clone vats. Would that count as universal healthcare?
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        |  Matrix Operator
 Imperial Academy
 Amarr Empire
 
 24
 
 
       | Posted - 2012.04.20 12:45:00 -
          [10] - Quote 
 
 Pyotr Kamarovi wrote:Why not just decrease the amount of raw ISK generated by missions, bounties and incursions, balancing it with an increase in salvage and/or item drops. Dropping them down to maybe a third and increasing the amount of items dropped on average to accommodate should do it, or even only halving it. 
 For reasons posted in post #34 bounty decreases will probably not happen, IMHO. Also, CCP just announced changes to make loot reprocessing less of a contributor to mineral supply to try to promote the miners. Increasing the number of salvaged items goes backward.
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        |  Matrix Operator
 Imperial Academy
 Amarr Empire
 
 28
 
 
       | Posted - 2012.04.23 06:40:00 -
          [11] - Quote 
 
 Scrapyard Bob wrote:No new item should have been introduced in the past few years which depend on a single material source (such as "only minerals" or "only PI inputs"). 
 Much, Much truth here. I agree. Wonder if CCP has the gumption to fix it.
 
 
 
 Adunh Slavy wrote:If the problem CCP wants to solve is monetary inflation, then solve that problem by whacking the problem at its source, the generation of ISK. Attempting to play all these other hidden tax and fee games is quite honestly foolish. 
 See post #34
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        |  Matrix Operator
 Imperial Academy
 Amarr Empire
 
 29
 
 
       | Posted - 2012.04.23 22:42:00 -
          [12] - Quote 
 
 Scrapyard Bob wrote:Mmm, impact of corp/alliance bills on a monthly basis:
 - A flat per-month fee per corp would ensure that long-dead corps get disbanded and their tickers get recycled.
 - A per-month fee for the alliance would do the same for alliance tickers.
 - It would act as an additional ISK sink.
 
 Per-corp fees could be as low as 100-500k/mo. Alliance fees in the range of 10-20M/mo. Maybe alliances pay 2M ISK/mo per member corp. Maybe corps pay a fee of 1k ISK/member each month to buy membership capacity.
 
 (shrugs) It's probably a horrid idea.
 
 This is an interesting idea. Question is, how much isk will it be successful at sinking per month? We would need to know the total number of active corps and alliances to know. If an entire alliance is only paying 20mil per month then that the equilivent to the amount a single incursion runner 'faucets' into the game in 2 incursions.... would it make enough of a dent in the problem?
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